If you cannot love an eternal torment god

[Bill]

A detailed exposition on why I believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.

One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

An interesting read but you attempt to muddy the water with many references to all the different listings of death in the Bible. I agree the Greek and our modern English are hard if not impossible to make agree whole heartily. That being said I will say for any who wish to look deeply at what the word of God has to say I advise looking deeply into the Word of God and so long as you can take your belief and all scripture when taken in context will agree with it you are pretty certain to be on the right path. Yes I believe in total destruction of the lost at the end of time and in simplicity to this point rather I use Greek, Hebrew, English, or King James 1611, King James Red Letter, King James Revised, Young's Literal, World English, Naves, or any other the closest I have come to matching all of the scripture to one belief is about infinity away, however I can say that I find no way to back the belief of a soul being saved except Thur the Blood of Christ and that has to happen prior to judgement. My friend please do not catch yourselves cast into outer darkness, study God's Word and listen to His voice, it will lead you where He knows you should go. Remember One who only listens to the sound of their own intelligence can not hear the wisdom and knowledge of God.

Love to all and May God Bless;

[rodgertutt]

I'm a "Biblical universal transformationist."
 
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in sin and suffering.
 
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
 
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

Gods purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where Gods age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.
 

[Greg]

Hi rodgertutt!

Could you please tell me what one must do to be "saved"? I never got an answer to that question before.

Thanks!

[rodgertutt]

Hi rodgertutt!
Could you please tell me what one must do to be "saved"? I never got an answer to that question before.
Thanks!

Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

But I think a more appropriate question is, "Why do we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when we do?" In other words

WHY ARE YOU AND I HAVING FAITH IN JESUS FOR OUR SALVATION?

Some Christians think that the gaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Other Christians think that the maintaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Yet other Christians think that both the gaining and the maintaining of their salvation is, in part, a human achievement. Even though it be ever so small, many Christians think that their part (which becomes the most important part) is absolutely necessary for the success of their salvation. God's part, they think, is not sufficient.

What everyone needs most is a willing heart and a change in their stubborn will. But many Christians think that at that point, just when we need Him the most, God lets us down. They think that He will not grant anyone a willing heart or effect a change in their stubborn will. This is something, they think, that they must supply on their own.

Even if we have been graced to come to Jesus, we tend to suppose that this was thanks to ourselves. Indeed, many seem to become much more proud and self reliant after "conversion" than ever before. And they seek to cover this up through much ill-disguised religious parlance in which it is true that they do give much, but certainly not all the credit to God. For example, "The Lord did it all, after I let Him." or "I could never be where I am today without His assistance."

This increase in pride is the result of having been subjected to such an abundance of human-independence teaching in an atmosphere in which it is continuously encouraged and reinforced, verified and justified with much approbation and exaltation.

After all, such believers are sure that they, unlike others, have "made their decision for Christ." And, they say, this has not occurred in the grace of God as a result of their having been chosen before the disruption of the world (even if the Scriptures do say so), but is the result and is thanks to their very own decision. Though others may far excel them in lesser things, when it comes to what is most important, they think it is obvious that they are superior. They think, "At least I was willing and sufficiently disciplined, for when it mattered the most I did the right thing and the switch got thrown, so people like me will go up to heaven while everyone else will go down to hell."

Just think of it. Picture this type of self-help salvation and pride. For all eternity (or at least for the ages) they will be able to say, "All those miserable sinners burning in hell could have gone to heaven too. Certainly the work of Christ saved no one at all. It wasn't supposed to. All it did was make salvation possible. Besides, every one of those sinners deserves to be in everlasting burning, for unlike me, they didn't do what they should have and could have. And here I am in eternal bliss, perfectly good and perfectly happy, even though billions of my fellow creatures are perfectly miserable and doomed to stay that way forever (or at least for the ages). Yet in the end I only got here myself because of what I did, not because of the sacrifice of Christ. I chose to meet God's demands for His (so-called) free gift and I did so. I wasn't given any special grace. It wasn't any easier for me than for anyone else. It's too late now anyway so let them burn. Too bad for them, but not for me. I'm happy and so is God. In fact we're all happy here."

You see, that's the ultimate selfishness of that view and that's what it leads to. One can only avoid boasting in self by truly ceasing to believe things and say things that are inherently of a boastful nature.

It is only the word of the cross that effectively and wisely trains us in this true humility so that "if anyone is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting," as Paul says. It is an empty gesture to go through the motions of giving all the glory to God, while at the same time continually believing that good decisions and acts are things which ultimately owe their existence to one's own self, God having but made them possible. May He enlighten us to see truly that it is "in the grace of God that I am what I am."

After thought. Since the salvation of even one soul is 100% by God's grace plus nothing, the salvation of all souls will be no problem for God at all according to His sovereign perfect timing for each individual

[Bill]

Hi Rogertutt;

But I think a more appropriate question is, "Why do we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when we do?" In other words

WHY ARE YOU AND I HAVING FAITH IN JESUS FOR OUR SALVATION?

The simplest answer for this I can give quickly is being called by God.

popped in to list a quick verse

2 Thessalonians  Chapter 2

13
 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
 
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
 

[rodgertutt]

Hi Rogertutt;

But I think a more appropriate question is, "Why do we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when we do?" In other words
WHY ARE YOU AND I HAVING FAITH IN JESUS FOR OUR SALVATION?

The simplest answer for this I can give quickly is being called by God.
popped in to list a quick verse
2 Thessalonians  Chapter 2:13
 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Good simple answer Bill. Now here is some more good news.

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

Some argue that He will not save all mankind, just the "especially" ones, that is why the word "especially" is there. Some even go so far as to say that the Greek word behind "especially" means that. To me, this is really straining at straws. This is usually the best those who believe in eternal torment can do with these scriptures. Let us see how easy it is to deflate such weak reasoning.

In Galatians chapter 6 verse 10 we have the following sentence:

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. (NKJV)
Is Paul saying that we are only to do good to the "household of faith" or is he saying we are to do good to "all," but especially the "household of faith?" Obviously, we are to do good to both groups. In like manner, Jesus is, in fact, Savior of all mankind and Savior of those who know they are saved. He is the Savior of both groups. The Greek word in both passages is the same Greek word, malista, which means "most of all." So then, we are to do good to all, most of all to the household of faith, and Jesus is the Savior of all, most of all to those who already have an earnest of the promise within them.

At this point, often the person will begin to try to interpret "all men" or "all mankind," etc., (depending upon the translation) as meaning "all sorts of men" such as some Europeans, some Americans, some Africans, etc. In other words, He will save some out of all mankind, but He won't save "all of mankind." Now they realize that is not what the passage plainly says, but they feel they believe that is what the passage means. None of the leading Bibles translate the phrase that way. The Jehovah Witness's Bible translates it "all sorts of men." So those who want to "interpret" this passage that way find themselves in agreement with a group notorious for putting their own interpretations right in the Word of God.

The phrase in question here is the Greek "ta panta." The Expositor's Greek Testament on page 504 in Volume 3 renders it "The universe in its widest sense regarded as a collective whole." Professor John Eadie, professor of Biblical Literature in the United Presbyterian Divinity Hall renders it, "The universe, the whole that exists, all things, whether they be things on earth, or in heaven." (Taken from Commentary of the Epistle of Paul to the Colossians, page 52, 73) Dr. J.B Lightfoot D.D., D.C.L., L.L.D. speaking of the phrase "ta panta" says, "The whole universe or things, material as well as spiritual, shall be restored to harmony to God." (St. Paul's Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 160) "'Ta panta' is the existing all, the totality of things [The universe, Alford-R], panta would be all that actually is (Winer's Grammar p.105)" This was found in Lange's Commentary Volume II under Epistle of Paul to the Colossians, by Karl Braune D.D..

Using my computer to try to find how "all sorts of" would appear in the Greek, I found nothing phrased that way. The closest I could come was "kinds of" in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14. The word for "kinds" was "geno," not "panta." In short, this Scripture very plainly states that Jesus is the Savior of All, both in the English and in the Greek. One has to add their own doctrines or interpretations in order to make it say something different. The Jehovah's Witnesses tampered with the Bible text itself, and those who interpret "all men, ta panta" as "all sorts of men" are doing exactly the same thing.

Now a Savior is much more than a lifeguard. A lifeguard's job is to save people from drowning, but he cannot be a savior until he actually saves someone. Jesus is not declared the potential savior, He is not called a lifeguard. He is, in fact, declared to have accomplished the act of saving, and not just saving those who believe, but even those who do not yet recognize they have been saved, reconciled, redeemed, forgiven. There are many still in prison houses waiting for someone to tell them they have been pardoned. The door is open. Step into the newness of life.

We, who are the "especially" crowd, have the honor of shouting to the world that they have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. "Be ye reconciled!" That should always be on our lips! We have very good news for the world, whether they awaken to it or not, whether Christian leaders believe it or not. It is a done deal. Let us get comfortable enough with these kinds of scriptures that we can explain away the lies that have been fed to the world about Who our Father really is. He is not interested in having a racially-balanced heavenly race by gathering a few representative samples from each continent. No, He is interested in restoring all things unto Himself that He may be all in all- nay, more than interested-determined. And who can resist a determined God Who shall do all His good pleasure, Who is willing that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

[Greg]

Hi,

Thanks for the answer to my question rodgertutt! Some of what you say makes sense but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around most of it. Of course that is the norm for most religions and denominations. As per the "what must I do to be saved" issue...according to the teachings of universal salvation the only answer you should gave me was, "nothing". But by using this verse to answer my question, which is very correct, it tends to contradict the whole teaching of universal salvation..." Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.""

If we all are going to be saved in the ultimate end then why would one have to do anything to be saved? There would be no point in even asking the question of what to do to be saved. Peter and the others were asked that same question...

Acts 2
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Point being is that "universal salvation" was NOT being preached here nor has it ever by the early church. The apostles didn't preach it nor was it a part of the Gospel or Good News. Therefore according to your teaching to be "saved" one must believe but you also say that you don't have to believe as well to be saved, all will be saved. Even so far as to that Satan himself will be saved! With this universal salvation confusion the believers in it should not be spreading any beliefs or trying to convert anyone to that belief because it doesn't matter at all...everyone will be saved anyway. You see freind...the whole theology and belief in universal salvation is a most illogical doctrine. But folks will believe it because it keeps them from the truth and an easy way out. Rather than seeking the truth of Christ and Him Crucified, the easy way is to believe that no matter what, "I will be saved anyway because God will not cast me away eternally!" Friend, what you teach and believe is totally contradictory in and of itself. I simply can not even begin to agree with you in your doctrine.

People fear what they do not understand, same goes with eternal punishment and being cast away from God. Instead of searching for the Way, Truth, and the Life, they hear of a false hope of "universal salvation" that none will be cast away...grab on because it is the easy way out and relief for the torment in their mind and heart. Universal Salvation is their salvation. That is based on false information though and many will realize much to late that the lake of fire will NOT end nor will they escape it. At that point it will be to late all the universal salvation doctrine, teachers thereof, and believers of it will not do any good. The time is now to cast away the foolish, easy way out doctrine and seek the truth of the matter.

rodgertutt, if I understood you correctly this doctrine pretty much brought you out of a mental breakdown. I truly am sorry to hear that you were in that condition but "universal salvation" is not the answer to your fears that put in that condition to begin with. Christ and Him Crucified is the answer. Christ and Him crucified is NOWHERE in universal salvation. I know you will say it is but i am sorry...it is not! If it were then there would be no reason to teach what you teach nor for the apostles nor the true church to teach what it teaches. All will be saved no matter what one believes. There is no need for a church or a faith in anything. We all should just do as we please and be saved in the end. Besides, to use the term "saved" would imply that there is SOMETHING to be saved from. According to your beliefs there is NOTHING to be saved from as eternal separation from God is non-existent. So the entire question of what shall i do to be saved is a senseless question. Yet, universal salvationist contend both a need for salvation and that there is nothing to be saved from. Frankly, it is an illogical absurdity to me. I truly hope my point has been well taken because at the end of universal salvation is eternal separation from God but when realized it will be to late. There is good news, it is Christ and Him crucified, not universal salvation!

God Bless!

[rodgertutt]

YOU SAID "If we all are going to be saved in the ultimate end then why would one have to do anything to be saved? There would be no point in even asking the question of what to do to be saved."
 
J. Preston Eby gives the following powerful response to your remark.

"Why preach and teach the Gospel if all are to be saved ultimately? There is no need to witness for they will be saved someday, someway, somewhere - right?" WRONG! First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years. Was it not Dr. A. J. Gordon who met an old crippled man on the street, and asked him why, with all his handicap, his face was nevertheless so bright and shining? And the old man answered, "The devil has no happy old men!"

Furthermore, God will never save your loved ones, your neighbors, or any other person who has ever lived or who ever shall live apart from a means, an instrument through which to reach them. And WE are that instrument! God declares to His elect in Isa. 49:6, "I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The method by which God causes men to believe is revealed in Rom. 10:14-15. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER? and how shall they PREACH except they be SENT?" Does the salvation of all men negate this procedure? No way! It only intensifies it! The simple truth is that God purposes to save all men. The means by which He shall accomplish this is a people, a royal priesthood, the Sons of God, who are made ONE with the priestly ministry of Jesus the great High Priest, to intercede, witness, speak, exhort, warn, entreat, preach, and proclaim the redemptive power of the Christ until this ministry conquers all men for God.

Ah - does the fact that God will have all men to be saved mean that it is meaningless to WITNESS, to PREACH? A thousand times no! "It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21). So we cannot preach less, we must not witness less, armed now with the hope that the preaching will ultimately BEAR FRUIT we shall preach more than ever before, for this is one of God's MEANS of salvation! Those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that only a small fraction of them will ever be saved? Why bother? To what end all the labor? The devil gets most of them in the end anyhow!

We who know that God will have all men to be saved are really the only people on earth who have real purpose in ministering to the lost. Praise God! He has committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. Now comes the word: "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: We pray you in Christ's stead, be reconciled unto God." (11 Cor. 5:18-20).

The apostle shows how it is that God was in Christ reconciling-- not the church, not the saints, not just believers, but the WORLD unto Himself, and now has given the ministry by which this reconciliation is to be effected---unto US! "We pray you in Christ's stead." Not witness to our loved ones because they will be saved anyway? Not preach to the unconverted because they will be saved in the end? The very idea is absurd, a complete contradiction of terms! Because God has made blessed provision for their salvation IS WHY WE WITNESS! On the contrary, to witness and witness and witness to vast numbers of people who will never be saved would be an effort in futility. If I believed that nonsense, then I really might stop preaching!

Will believing that God is the Saviour of all men do away with evangelistic fervor and zeal? Only in men who hold a carnal knowledge of the doctrine in their intellect, but have no deep revelation of the truth of it in their hearts. It did not affect the apostle Paul in this manner. On the contrary it increased his fervor and zeal. Paul states it clearly and emphatically, "For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Tim. 4:10). After many years of ministry, being, by the grace of God, an instrument of God to help a great many people in the deep spiritual, psychical, and physical needs of their lives, I testify that I know of no greater joy on earth than the joy of seeing people receive Christ as their own Saviour and Lord. Just ask anyone who has led some person to the Lord, what is the greatest joy he knows. He will not be slow in telling you. Or try it yourself!

The fact that we see and appreciate God's great and wonderful plan for all men leaves no room in us for a dilatory, DON'T CARE spirit. The elect of God are always conscious of their unique calling. We are given the high honor of being "laborers together with God." Some day when the last devil has been subjected, and the last sinner broken in humility and contrition at the lovely feet of Jesus, we shall realize, as we may not now, just how great that honor really is, and how much we have missed if we fail to share in this task to which the Almighty has set His hand.

I must confess that I am deeply grieved in my spirit when I meet these would-be Sons of God who look with contempt upon those who still have a passion for souls and desire to see men delivered from the power of the devil. I am aware of the fact that the hour has not yet arrived when God shall deal with all nations, and multitudes of past generations, to bring forth His salvation in them, but it is my deepest conviction that one of the sure marks of sonship is the spirit of reconciliation. Why speak of our great hope of what God shall do in the ages to come if the spirit of that hope is not now alive in our hearts? It is not the doctrine of reconciliation that shall change the world, but the ministry of reconciliation. The ministry of reconciliation springs from the spirit of reconciliation.

If you would not walk across the street to see some poor soul delivered and converted by the redeeming power of Christ, don't waste your time relating to me how you are chosen of God to help in the delivering of the whole creation from the bondage of sin and death. The Spirit of Reconciliation must reign within our hearts. The Ministry of Reconciliation must issue forth from our lives. Rivers of Living Water must, even now, pour forth out of our innermost being, bringing hope and victory and life to all who will come and drink! Amen!

Back to Savior of the World Series Index
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

YOU ALSO SAID "Point being is that "universal salvation" was NOT being preached here nor has it ever by the early church. The apostles didn't preach it nor was it a part of the Gospel or Good News."

I guess you will be forced to call the following writers "liars."

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
 
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote ?The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.? And they were reading the Bible in its original language. 

[rodgertutt]

You said, "The apostles didn't preach it nor was it a part of the Gospel or Good News."

But the Apostles did teach Universal Salvation!

Tit 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men"  1 John  2:2 "and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Prescribe and teach is another way to say, ?spread the word and thoroughly explain it.?  1 Ti 4:10-11 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.  Prescribe and teach these things."

The word destroy here means to set free, break up, dismiss, set loose something bound, untie.  1 John  3:8 ?the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.?  Heb 2:14  Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,  Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.  Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the completion of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Note that immortality here means incorruptible and an inability to experience corruption.  2 Ti 1:10  but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Notice our resurrected state is directly tied to Christ?s power to subdue everything unlike him to himself.  Everybody will require this process.  Phi 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the effective operating power that He has to subject everybody and everything to Himself.

Note the instructions here in Jude on how to deal with a wayward bunch.  All church discipline had restoration as its goal as this and the example in 1 Cor 5:1-5,13 and 2 Corinthians 2:6-11 and 1 Tim. 1:20 makes clear.  Jude 1:21-23 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.  And have mercy on some who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with sincere concern regarding their condition, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

The same all that die are the same all that are made alive.  None, except the Christ, escapes Adam?s curse and none will miss out on the life which the Christ brings!  1 Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Universal submission to and recognition of the Savior results in universal salvation.  Also, can it be any clearer that universal salvation includes everybody?  Rev 5:13 And everybody which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and everybody and everything in these things, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

The restoration of all things is plainly taught.  Nothing is beyond God's ability to fix.  1 Co 15:24-28 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.  But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.  (Act 3:21) whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of everybody and everything about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

Is God's will sovereign or not?  1 Ti 2:1-6  First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.   1 John  4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

The phrase ?the full number? in this verse is the same word used in ?The earth is the Lord?s and the fullness thereof.?  Romans 11:25-26 "So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.  And in this way all Israel will be saved"

The word Lord refers to someone that masters, owns, subdues and has sovereign authority over something.  God?s will be done ? and his will is that all be saved!  Romans 14:7-9  For nobody lives for himself, and nobody dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.  For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."  Also see Luke 20:37-38 and Mark 12:27. 

The word reconciliation in this verse means, ?restoration to divine favor.?  The reconciliation is past tense.  2 Co 5:19 that is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not reverence and glorify Your name, O Lord [giving You honor and praise in worship]? For You only are holy.  All the nations shall come and pay homage and adoration to You, for Your just judgments (Your righteous sentences and deeds) have been made known and displayed.  [See Ps. 86:9, 10; Jer. 10:7.]

Paul calls the resurrection of the just and unjust as, ?a hope in God? and says the prophets of old agreed with him.  Act 24:15 "And I have a hope in God, which these men [the Prophets of old]  themselves also accept and hope for, that there is going to be a resurrection, both of the righteous and the unrighteous."

The word 'neighbor' in this verse refers to all men, not just the saved.  Eph 4:25, "Therefore reject all falsity and be done with it, let everyone express the truth with his neighbor, for we are all parts of one body and members one of another."

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm

[Greg]

You said, "The apostles didn't preach it nor was it a part of the Gospel or Good News."

But the Apostles did teach Universal Salvation!

Tit 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men"  1 John  2:2 "and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Ok, let's play with the words a bit here...."bringing salvation to all men". does that mean men, or mankind? If men, then women or out of luck! Of course it means mankind! If it means mankind will be all saved then what happens to these people?

Revelation 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

answer:

Revelation 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Humm...

Rev 22:18 (KJV)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So does all this mean your saved then unsaved then hummm saved again as to what you believe the lake of fire will be done away with and all that are in it will be saved some for the second time???

All your writings and links in the world is not going to convince me of your "universal salvation" hopes. It just doesn't correlate with the Word of God and simple plain truth. Sorry!

This whole teaching of universal salvation is like the chicken and the egg question...Which came first, Universal Salvationist or Jehovah's Witnesses? Because they are almost one in the same. Sorry that's just facts.

[Greg]

Oh yea, while i am here I would like to ask this question of you:

Is Jesus Christ immortal and everlasting? Is He for ever and ever? And how do you know this?

thanks!

[Bill]

Oh yea, while i am here I would like to ask this question of you:

Is Jesus Christ immortal and everlasting? Is He for ever and ever? And how do you know this?

thanks!

Hello Greg;
I know you asked the question of rogertutt but I am curious to see where you are going with this one so please
allow me to give an answer.
As to rather Christ is immortal or everlasting , you can not be one with out the other in a manner which mankind
is able to fully grasp. Christ Himself, calls Himself, the Alpha and the Omega an number of times (unlike normal I am only
 liisting the chosen verses)
 Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
 Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
 Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
 Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
As to Christ's being eternal or immortal;
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood
by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory
for ever and ever. Amen.
I would have to say He indeed is both everlasting and most certainly immortal.
Anyway as I said I wanted to answer it to see where you are taking it.

[Greg]

Hi Bill,

Good answer! I will post a reply to this this evening as I have to get to work soon. Thanks for your input and answer. This is just one of many questions that brings the flaws to light of Universal Salvation and how the twisting of words and the use of Greek only produces a mass of misinterpretation in the Word of God. Until this evening...

[Greg]

rodgertutt wrote:

The true meaning of FOREVER AND EVER

Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all 1Cor. 15:28. How do we know that? See further on in this message.

All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective).
ALL of them refer to a limited period of time.

For aionion, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesnt. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.

rodgertutt claims that "aion" means a limited space of time. which would mean that "for ever" is not eternal or forever. Humm...it would seem that rodgertutt's answer to Jesus being eternal or forever would be "No Jesus is not eternal". Therefore rodgertutt and the universalist are calling Jesus a liar because He said He was and is eternal. Why can I say this? Because the same Greek word is used in the following verse in which Christ is speaking:

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):?age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Rev 1:17 (KJV)
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Greek links to words in verse:

18I amG1510G1510 he that livethG2198G2198, and was deadG3498G3498; and, beholdG2400G2400, I amG1510G1510 aliveG2198G2198 for evermoreG3588-G165G3588-G165, AmenG281G281; and haveG2192G2192 the keysG2807G2807 of hellG86G86 and of deathG2288G2288.

Now another verse that uses the SAME word "aion" to describe the lake of fire and the torment therein:

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Pointing to the greek:
10And the devilG1228G1228 that deceivedG4105G4105 them was castG906G906 intoG1519G1519 the lakeG3041G3041 of fireG4442G4442 and brimstoneG2303G2303, whereG3699G3699 the beastG2342G2342 and the falseG5578G5578 prophetG5578G5578 are, and shall be tormentedG928G928 dayG2250G2250 and nightG3571G3571 for everG165 and everG165.

So there you have it..."universalism" and "universalist" call Jesus a liar as they say "aion" is not eternal and is for a specific period of time that will end.

Jesus Christ is aion! UN-ENDING! Forever! Evermore!

As I am somewhat multi-lingual I have a bit of understanding as to how different languages mean different things. A man makes a spectacle of himself by spinning his tires in the street, a woman may make a spectacle of her self by dressing provocative walking down the sidewalk. If we say, " The man made a spectacle of himself". Does that mean the only way a man can "make a spectacle" of himself is to spin his tires in the street and same with the woman? If we say "they made spectacles of themselves". Did they do the same thing? Obviously not! Their actions were totally different but the same word was used to describe them.

Universalist tend to like to use greek to mask their points and beliefs. They twist the "context" around trying to make their idea's believable. All it takes is a bit of study in the Word of God to see right through the false hope they have that gives them comfort for a short time. It allows them to not deal with the truth of their circumstances, which without Christ and Him crucified, eternal separation from God will be the alternative. It is easy to fabricate a universal salvation and NEVER fully come to the cross of Christ!

I wish you would think about this all rodgertutt.